Really long discussion on specific things to do to better include women in gaming

[zdashamber]

So in the community of Forgish people who talk about rpgs, the most recent kerfluffle is that someone called someone on using sexist language, with predictable results: "You're oversensitive. Shut up."

However, there are some bright points. Matt Wilson posted a good overview of the problem of sexism, and Thomas lordsmerf was interested enough to ask, what is all this about? and discuss it with me. (Since I started writing this, Matt added a second post about the solutions he suggests, and John Kim added a post to the discussion, too.)

While I was following this, I found in the work lunchroom a recent issue of Nature, the cover of which linked (heh. first verb that occurred to me) to a story inside about a study of gender inequality in British physics departments. Carried the magazine away, read the miniscule story, hunted down the website of the organization mentioned (the Institue of Physics), hunted down the unlinked study on the website, downloaded the pdf (!!), and was pleased to find that after all that there was, in fact, a good amount of useful bits to the study.

Basically, the Institute of Physics (which seems to be the UK equivalent of the American Physical Society) set on a scheme to offer the heads of university physics departments throughout the UK the chance to have a panel of women and men visit their institution to provide an outsider’s view on the gender friendliness of their department. "About 40% of the heads in the UK and none of those in Ireland requested a visit." The visits took place between 2003-2005, and then the IOP wrote up a detailed survey of what they'd seen and the solutions they'd offered the heads.

Here are some of the suggestions they offer to make physics more welcoming to women. How does this relate? Physics, like gaming, has nothing to do with gender, but is presently male-dominated. I'm going to discuss how some of the specific suggestions the IOP offers could be implemented by forum leaders, concomm members, and other big fish in the gaming world. A lot of the discussion will refer to Story Games, since that forum ultimately spawned this post. A lot of both the IOP study and this discussion won't be particularly about females, but rather about creating a better environment for everyone. That's what feminism is: attempting to make the best things available to everyone, no matter what gender the things have traditionally been tied to.

• One of the major beneficial effects of the visits was in raising the awareness of gender issues within a given department. (2.1)

It's a good point. Every discussion we have about gender issues and gaming has the potential to clear away cruft in people's heads and and make the internet a friendlier place.

• The majority of departments had a policy on harassment, although this was not usually accompanied by a satisfactory scheme (2.4).

As I'll get into more downblog, a written policy of welcome and equality will do a lot to set the tone of the discussion following.

• The panel found that the social atmosphere in departments varied considerably. It was noticeable that groups with a strong multinational flavour tended to be more welcoming to women and less likely to revolve around “laddish” culture.

Oh hell yes. As long as you're recruiting women, why not recruit people from other countries, people of other races, people of other classes? One problem pointed out specifically in the Very Special thread was that the vast majority of posters were comfortably-off white males from New England. A guy from Spain to back up the guy from the American Southwest could have short-circuited a lot of irrelevant discussion.

• Isolation of women within particular research groups could also be alleviated by a dedicated social space for the whole department; for example, a coffee room. (2.8)

It may seem like the whole internet fits this qualification, but having thought about it, this is a great place to enact change. In a coffee room, you happen across people and then group together in small conversations. But on the internet as a whole, every conversation you have is as if it's done on a stage. The places you go for small group conversations are blogs.

Many a time a person will venture out into the trashing waters of controversy only because they have a solid foundation of support at home on their blog. And making friends and following their blogs allows people to split up controversies. When it comes to feminism and rpgs, for example, I could have a debate every. single. day of the year... But that's not how I want to spend my time. So if I can instead back someone else who's covering the most recent thing, it makes me far more likely to not walk off in disgust.

So, for the specific examples of changes that could be made: In the "shut up!" thread when Mo came in with the righteous smackdown I was like, Damn, now here's a woman after my own heart! I want to talk to her! But Story Games has no way for me to find her. There are no sigs where she can put her blog info. There are no e-mail addresses where I can send her words of praise and support. The setup of the forums at Story Games keeps everyone isolated from each other, which plays to the majority.

The other important part of the suggestion is social space. Rpg.net has a good thing going in their Tangency forums: a specific place where people can get together and talk like friends, without the looming specter of relevance to any topic. People can make connections and deepen ties to each other. For example, I just recently started cruising rpg.net, but already Amado G has won a place in my heart for being a fellow Ozomatli pusher. (They're an awesome hispanic hiphop fusion band.) If it someday comes to pass that we are on opposite sides of an argument, I will now be less likely to ignore his argument because he's [of some underrepresented group].

Con runners could add an option to the nametag that would show your e-mail address or blog address, to make it easier for people to connect to each other once the con has passed.

• The administrative and management arrangements for the department should be agreed and presented in a transparent manner. The roles of committees should be publicised along with the criteria for membership. There should be clear guidelines for the eligibility and application procedures for sabbatical leave and the allocation of teaching and administration should be made as open as possible. (2.9)

This is a good thing for everyone. What are the rules? How does someone get to be one of the rulemakers? Making the process open ensures that anyone can see how fair it is.

• Childcare facilities should be re-examined and universities should ensure that there are sufficient places to cover the needs of both staff and students. (2.10)

I remember at a past Ambercon Northwest, one couple had to trade off slots so there was always someone to watch the sprog. And many times only one member of a couple with a kid comes to a convention at all... And it's usually the man.

It's something to consider, especially for conventions with upwards of a hundred people. Does any con with a con suite has enough volunteers and cash to have day care? I wonder if Ambercon US could add day care--the volunteer each slot seems to have little to do, and I'd guess it would help at least 5 couples... I'd sure be willing to pay the sitter, if I had a kid. And I'd probably be willing to be paid to watch kids for a slot, too, for that matter...

I suspect the holdup is liability. Could the concomm contract it out and just alert babysitters to the potential motherlode, and gamers to the potential service? It's a problem that we all need to put some serious thought into.

• Women speakers were under-represented in the programme of colloquia and seminars. There was no evidence of active discrimination, but the organisers had not registered this anomaly. (2.11)

Are women game designers and theorists equally sought out for opinions? Has anyone checked? I suspect we'd find a similar anomaly. To actually get numbers on this, though, you'd need a person to conduct a survey of threads, and you'd need hard figures on the number of females in the rpg industry.

• The appointment of a diversity officer sends a clear message to staff and students that
  diversity issues are important. (2.12)

An avowedly feminist mod might serve the same need online.

• There is also no excuse for the presence of any posters or pictures that are offensive or alienating. (2.13)

This has been covered at great length many times before. Crap rpg art is a simple and easy thing to chuck. Sexist art shouldn't be used to advertise cons.

However, on the internet we've got the thousand words to replace the pictures. Thus, there is no excuse for holding to exclusionary terminology. I covered this to some degree when I talked with lordsmerf (linked above). The one-sentence summation is, don't drag gender-specific words into genderless activities like gaming.

When you're talking about rpging, women are your colleagues in the discussion. Basically, don't say things on the internet that you wouldn't say at work. Call people on it when they do. Would you say "y'all got a purty mouth" at work? Would you say, "I detail cars... With my penis!"? God, I hope not. Ew. ;)

• Most departments are offering an excellent support infrastructure to their students although there was not always a female member of staff available for pastoral support on confidential matters. Secretarial staff who take on a pastoral role should have this recognised in their job description and receive appropriate training. (3.1, 3.2)

"Pastoral." Don't say something along the lines of "If they have no bread then let them eat cake." ::snrk::

Right, excuse me. The British use interesting words. The point I think we can take from passage 3.2, though, is that the people up at the forefront of providing equal ground, mods and high wookies and such, shouldn't be thrown out there with no background. It's not trivial for people to learn to notice equality issues.

• Networking between the female undergraduates, postgraduates and research assistants (RAs) should be encouraged, especially in departments where there are very few or no women lecturers. (3.3, 3.4)

This ties back to the points in 2.8: make it easy for people to find each other's blogs.

• Where there are specific measures in place to support female students, explicit reference should be
  made to them. A simple statement that the department particularly welcomes female applicants is also encouraged. The presence of women students and staff at admissions open days was found to be important. (3.6, 3.7)

Oh hell yes. If you want to redress the imbalance of males and females in gaming, specifically point out that women are welcome. Point to the feminist mods, too.

• There was a surprisingly wide variation in the proportion of female undergraduates. Where possible, links should be made with schools and colleges to encourage more local students to apply to do physics. (3.8)

For example, plug Story Games on Women in Gaming boards and forums.

• Also, a recurring theme of the visits was that specific supervisors, male and female, were consistently more successful in attracting female students, largely for the simple reason that they made them feel welcome. (4.1, 4.2)

One bizarre trend I've noticed among Forgish theorists is the demand for a real-sounding name upon first meeting someone. Why don't they call people by the names those people have chosen? Why not warn people not to bother with handles at all? The initial smack to a newbie who feels they've misstepped stings.

Then they use the "real" name when talking to the person in the future, which is baffling to a person just joining the conversation. Bubba Ho-Tep and Tiny Minnows are talking, so who are Marie and Alfred?

As for positive steps to make people feel welcome, there's nothing to compare to saying, "Oho, that's neat, here I am building off of it in my post on your thread..."

Something that Story Games does well is that it has no post count associated with each poster. A newbie need not have it constantly pointed out that they have not been around as long as some of the other posters; there's no implicit "better than" attached to a person's name.

• Many of the departments had no or only one female member of staff. Management often said this was because so few women applied for posts. There is nothing discriminatory in encouraging women to apply. Steps that can be taken include making women feel welcome by stating that the department actively encourages female applicants, and targeting specific women. The best candidate must be appointed but there is no harm in increasing the number of women applicants. (6.1)

Again, specifically invite women to join your gaming discussions or come to your con. Seek them out.

• Management at both university and department level should accept that childcare is a universal feature of human life and not a “problem” associated with women. (6.11)

Word. It's not so much relevant to rpg discussion, but it's good to take care that games you're designing don't settle unwatched into stereotyped gender roles like poop drifting to the bottom of a toilet.

***

That was the stuff I found applicable from the overview... In the discussion section, there were several nice bits of writing that triggered further thoughts or elaborations:

The departments were asked for a set of information (admission statistics, PhD completion rates, names of seminar speakers etc) to be supplied before the visit. It was immediately apparent that the majority of departments had a great deal of trouble providing gender-disaggregated data, indicating that the idea of looking for evidence of dissimilar treatment was a new one to them.

It would be a good idea to have statistics for each discussion board: Numbers of males, females, decline-to-states, others; genders of highest posters; number of threads started by gender. Same for each gaming convention: breakdown of attendees; GMs by gender; genders of invited guests. These statistics should be on the internet, available to all.

Ignorance by the masses doesn't do the underserved any good.

The departments that seemed most welcoming for women were those where there was a high level of gender awareness. Often, this was reflected in their attitude towards the visits visits themselves. Good practice: Gender issues should be discussed openly by all staff within a department in as constructive a manner as possible. Often, the mere recognition of a problem can lead to an improved atmosphere.

In addition to the written policy of welcome, a "no threadcrapping" policy would greatly aid discussion of tetchy subjects like equality.

On a more general level, it was striking the effect a sympathetic head of department or research group could make. There were numerous examples of groups with a large number of women members as a result of the personal qualities of the group leader. In one case, the mere fact that a (male) group leader had publicly stated that he wished to encourage more women into the subject had had a positive effect.

Board leaders and con chairs, you have power undreamt!

By and large, the undergraduate admissions material is of a high standard almost everywhere, in the sense that the design is attractive and the brochure is usually printed on high-quality paper. However, it was rare to find anything that was particularly appealing to women. For example, although there were usually photographs of both male and female students, it was noticeable that the men were usually the active ones, with the women shown in more passive roles.

This points to another common discussion that happens whenever women and gaming are brought up together, and it's a good point: to make women feel included in gaming, it's best to include them in the examples in game books, as active participants in the game; and female characters in the art should be no more naked/passive than the male characters.

A simple statement that the department particularly welcomes female applicants, highlighting the support provided, is also to be encouraged.

Once you've adapted your con or message board to make it more female-friendly, brag about it! Advertise it on the rules sticky or website, and reap the benefits to a greater degree.

***

So that's the last of the stuff I gleaned from going through the report top to bottom.

Now, I condense it into suggested best practices for evening up the percentage of women involved in rpgs!


Stuff everyone can do:


• Eschew gendered language, harassing language, sexist art, and stereotypical gender roles.
  
  
• Keep an eye out to see that you're mentioning women game designers and theorists when you can.
  
  
• Seek out and recruit women specifically to GMing, theorizing, and the hobby in general.
  
  
• Support childcare at cons.
  
  
  Make your board/con a welcoming place:
  
  
  • Make sure the rules and the explanation of the purpose and general social "feel" of the board are easily found.
    
    
  • Explain what will happen to those who break the rules, who determines whether someone has broken a rule, and how those decisions can be appealed.
    
    
  • Make sure the actual process of finding new mods, or enforcing the rules, is crystal-clear to all.
    
    
  • List the current mods, with a 1- or 2-line blurb so they can tout their feminism or Audobon Society membership or whathaveyou. The idea is to make it clear what the balance of moderation is, and let people know who they might want to approach if they're concerned.
    
    
    Add to the rules/practices post:
    
    
    • Specific mention of welcome for women.
      
      
    • Explanation of any in-jokes or commonly-used jargon.
      
      
    • Mention of any hazing newbies might expect.
      
      
    • Specific mention of ways to encourage people with words to make the board more welcoming.
      
      
    • A ban on posting to a thread just to say it's stupid and shouldn't be discussed.
    
    
  • Fill in your mods on the problem of female exclusion.
    
    
  • When there's an opening for a mod or other important person, see if you can find a female to fill it.
    
    
  • Don't have post counts.
    
    
  • Provide a social space so people on your board or at your con can talk about random things and become friends with each other.
    
    
  • Make it as easy as possible for people to find each other's blogs, and make sure people can talk to each other privately one-on-one, be it by e-mail or private message.
    
    
  • Sticky all the gender-related statistics you can get your hands on for your board/con. Actively seek out gender-related statistics. Knowing is half the battle.
  
  
• Brag about what you've done to further the cause of equality in gaming.

Brag: I, for example, have poured insane amounts of time into writing this post. I hope you all find it useful.

Comments

Hmmm....

[obadiah.livejournal.com]

Current music: Aha -Take On Me

Coincidence...or throwing down the gauntlet for folks to take on your arguments? ;-) Seriously, though, nicely done essay. I particularly like the concrete suggestions for improving things you present at the end.

My specific comments follow.

That's what feminism is: attempting to make the best things available to everyone, no matter what gender the things have traditionally been tied to.

Hear hear!

As long as you're recruiting women, why not recruit people from other countries, people of other races, people of other classes?

Very good point. Most gamers I know are white or East Asian, and though I have met working-class gamers in the past, I haven't encountered them in a long time. I only knew blue-collar gamers "back in the day" -- in the late 70s/early 80s -- and they seemed primarily to have come out of the world of miniatures and Avalon Hill type games, then wandered off into Traveller and/or the Fantasy Trip. Lately, though, it's been all middle class & upper middle class in my experience. Mind you, I'm skewed by (1) mostly being involved with Amber DRPG gamers, who tend to read a lot and own (therefore can afford) a lot of books, and (2) being in that class myself, so I'm not at all sure if I have a representative sample at this point in my gaming life. More data (anecdotal and otherwise) would be welcome.

Nonetheless, I think that RPG gaming is more expensive than it was back in the day, even allowing for inflation. Books back then tended to be home-grown and pretty cheaply made (and badly copy-edited, with mediocre artwork, etc. -- the downside). Now everything is slick and professional-looking, often hardbound with full-color glossy pages. As Peter Falk's character in the movie All the Marbles kept putting it, "Them frills cost money." And that cost is passed on to the gamer, effectively raising the class floor for entry. There are a few exceptions, of course, such as the output of Cheap Ass Games.

Con runners could add an option to the nametag that would show your e-mail address or blog address, to make it easier for people to connect to each other once the con has passed.

The feminist SF convention WisCon has had an LJ party for the last few years with blog names and default pictures on stickers that you can add to your badge (if you want to). It works very well, IMO.

[Regarding at-con daycare] I suspect the holdup is liability. Could the concomm contract it out and just alert babysitters to the potential motherlode, and gamers to the potential service? It's a problem that we all need to put some serious thought into.

Hmmm...larger SF cons seem to have established protocols for daycare (though I've never looked into it, since I don't have kids). Mayhap some cross-fertilization of information could be had.

to make women feel included in gaming, it's best to include them in the examples in game books

Actually, I've seen this being done a lot more in recent RPG books, which is a Good Thing.

to make women feel included in gaming, it's best to include them...as active participants in the game

In my experience, gamers come in a range from extroverts to the painfully shy (regardless of gender), and GMs need to be very aware of who is, unconsciously or not, demanding lots of attention and who is silently suffering in the background. As a GM, I've had to learn this skill, but my games have improved because of it. If GMs practice this kind of parity, women will naturally have as much "screen-time" with GM focus as men, because everyone will have the same amount.

female characters in the art should be no more naked/passive than the male characters.

I'm personally happy to see both male and female characters scantily clad in artwork. Preferably in the same piece of artwork. But that's me. :-)

Re: Hmmm....

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Current music: Aha -Take On Me

Coincidence...or throwing down the gauntlet for folks to take on your arguments? ;-)

Hee. Man, I've got Drowning Pool's "Step Up" on here... "If you want to step up, step up, you're going to get knocked down..."

Seriously, "Take on Me" came on and I was amused and saved the reference, but I was planning on furthering the pushing of Ozomatli by listing "Ya Viene el Sol"... Or to keep to the theme, "Saturday Night": "The people rose up/Government froze up/World-wide block party, everybody shows up..."

Lately, though, it's been all middle class & upper middle class in my experience.

I know a few lower-middle-class-to-poor gamers, but only over the internet—none in the Bay Area. Met most of ‘em through the Amberlist. I think mailing lists may be more inclusive to people who don’t have the sorts of jobs that let them sit at work and cruise forums, because with a mailing list the neat stuff is delivered to you.

Books back then tended to be home-grown and pretty cheaply made (and badly copy-edited, with mediocre artwork, etc. -- the downside).

A better second-hand RPG market would be a big help, I think. eBay’s a great boon, but I wish there were more used bookstores that dealt in rpgs. I know of only one in the Bay Area. The ability to browse and happen across things you had no idea existed is powerful.

Hmmm...larger SF cons seem to have established protocols for daycare (though I've never looked into it, since I don't have kids).

Me neither, but I’ve gone to KublaCon and ComicCon, and I don’t remember anything about day care on their websites, nor did I see any day care indications while I was there.

female characters in the art should be no more naked/passive than the male characters.

I'm personally happy to see both male and female characters scantily clad in artwork. Preferably in the same piece of artwork. But that's me. :-)

Man, do I have the book for you. I was seeking out Theatrix because I’d heard it was the only diceless game besides Amber that didn’t suck, and some online seller sent me instead the only Theatrix expansion, a worldbook for “Ironwood”, which is apparently soft porn in a fantasy setting…

As for scantily clad folks, I tend to lean towards Mark Twain’s position: “Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.” ;) (I see naked people, man, I want to hand them a sweater. It’s cold out there!)

[itsmrwilson.livejournal.com]

Hooray! That's a lot of cool stuff.

Thanks for posting all this. You are totally friendified by me now, even if I rarely post on my LJ.

Hey, and who are you on StoryGames, if'n you don't mind me asking?

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Cool! Much of the stuff I post is not gaming-related, but I'm going to be starting a campaign soon, so I'll see if that changes...

I'm not actually on StoryGames; I cruise by and scan it a couple days a week, but so far I haven't seen anything that calls me to jump in. And as I was up last night reading the far-flung echoes of this Macho thing I saw that Story Games apparently has a "if you don't like the Forge, you won't like us" bit in their rules/practices post, which isn't terribly encouraging... (The idea of talking about the gears and whirring things behind gaming is neat, and there are a lot of neat people doing that. But the Forgish moderation style sucks, and their deep pathological love of jargon is bad.)

[peaseblossom.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for finding me on the vast internets and thanks so much for posting this. Now I have a couple of handy links when folks ask me, 'But what do you want me to do about it?' :)

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Thanks for standing up in the first place. It's the currents roiling around your stand that are dragging up nourishing silt from the bottom... To attempt to convey an odd metaphor. ;)

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

Hey peaseblossom, I read that whole enormous cluster of threads... and it was my first time looking at that forum. And I liked what you said a lot.

[cochese.livejournal.com]

The childcare one seems like it can be tough. Aren't there a lot of liability issues surrounding "daycare" type environments?

[tlatoani.livejournal.com]

Yes. Big time.

[lordsmerf.livejournal.com]

Quick aside: I still haven't come up with an answer regarding who's definition I should use when language might be considered gender-excluding, but that's not what you're talking about here...

First, excellent post! There is a lot of good stuff, and highly applicable stuff at that, here. Two quick comments:

• Most departments are offering an excellent support infrastructure to their students although there was not always a female member of staff available for pastoral support on confidential matters. Secretarial staff who take on a pastoral role should have this recognised in their job description and receive appropriate training. (3.1, 3.2)

"Pastoral." Don't say something along the lines of "If they have no bread then let them eat cake." ::snrk::

Right, excuse me. The British use interesting words. The point I think we can take from passage 3.2, though, is that the people up at the forefront of providing equal ground, mods and high wookies and such, shouldn't be thrown out there with no background. It's not trivial for people to learn to notice equality issues.

"Pastoral" in this sense is referring to a sort of mentoring position. The problem is that since there are so few female professors, there is no one for female students to talk to girl-to-girl (so to speak). The result is often that a female administrative person (like a secretary) ends up informally taking the role of authority-figure confidante for female students. However, since it's informal they don't really receive any training or publicity about doing it.

I think the lesson here isn't to train mods to notice gender equality, but rather to have a recognized and publicized set of [insert minority here] people who are well-respected in the community that new people can turn to (quite possibly in the form of mods). It's easier to approach someone you can relate to when you're confused.

This is something I think that very few online forums handle well at all for any group, but I would guess it's worse for minorities.

One bizarre trend I've noticed among Forgish theorists is the demand for a real-sounding name upon first meeting someone. Why don't they call people by the names those people have chosen? Why not warn people not to bother with handles at all? The initial smack to a newbie who feels they've misstepped stings.

Then they use the "real" name when talking to the person in the future, which is baffling to a person just joining the conversation. Bubba Ho-Tep and Tiny Minnows are talking, so who are Marie and Alfred?

This is a really interesting point. I've been involved in a series of discussions and done a number of (terribly informal) studies on the impact of real names used online. The tendency is for people to be more civil when real names are used because A) names are more personal than handles, and the more personal things get the harder it is to treat people as members of a class instead of as individuals, and B) when you're using your own name, you tend to reign yourself in a bit, you might run into some of these people in real life, and they'll know you are a total jerk online.

That said, I think that you're making a strong point about the stealth nature and strong insistence that is especially prevelant on the Forge. I'm involved in a number of forums in which real names are required to post. Part of the problem is that there is huge social pressure on the Forge to do something that isn't (technically) policy. So while you're within your rights to not use your real name, it turns out that failure to do so risks significant social censure.

Anyway, thanks again for the dicsussion earlier, and for this one!

Thomas

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

I think the lesson here isn't to train mods to notice gender equality, but rather to have a recognized and publicized set of [insert minority here] people who are well-respected in the community that new people can turn to (quite possibly in the form of mods). It's easier to approach someone you can relate to when you're confused.

You're totally right about the recognized and publicized set of respected minority people... Can't ever be bad. I think, though, that it's still a good thing to ensure that powerful people who are part of the majority know at least a little about equality... It's unfair to drop the onus of education onto the underrepresented people.

For the real names online thing, I come from what may be a strange place, since my first steps onto the internet were on a BBS that required the use of handles. Just seems natural to me to treat Argyle the same as James.

[a2macgeek.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just me, but language saying "We specifically welcome women," would make me leary. Makes me wonder why. Do they have a quota to meet? Has there been problems in the past such that they now have to reassure women that they are welcome? Are they looking for women because they want someone to hit on? Treating me differently doesn't make me feel welcome.

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Heh. Good point. The world of Physics that spawned this post is 30 years ahead of the world of gamers in this instance: no one says, "Hey we should get more chicks into our Physics program, because then we can date them!"

Reminds me of the time I answered an ad on Craigslist along the lines of "we're all male, and we're looking to add some women gamers, to play Amber or M&M" or somesuch. Turned out to be a group of very fat men, the ad-posting one of whom hadn't gotten much buy-in from the rest. So one ignored me, one was 3 hours late, one spent all that time hitting on me... The ad-posting guy explained that he wanted a woman to help him change the whole group's playstyle to something more story-based and less fight-based.

Thank you, no.

No, really.

;)

Anyway, would it work to phrase it so that the percieved problem was more acknowledged? Like, "As of October '05, only 22% of the posters here are female. We want this board to be welcoming to people of all genders, so if you're running into anything that would make this place offputting to women, please let [feminist mod] know."

[heron61.livejournal.com]

An impressive and excellent post. I have only two comments to add. In case you didn't see my most recent post in jhkimrpg, I'll expand a bit on it. I think one of the (many) problems is so many male games have remarkably little knowledge about the sorts of books many female sf/fantasy geeks read and the sort of roleplaying many of them are doing.

When I came up with the idea for and started writing Blue Rose (http://bluerose.greenronin.com/), I assumed that since almost every gamer reads a fair amount of fantasy, they would all at least have heard of at least some books in the genre I call romantic fantasy (http://heron61.livejournal.com/126526.html) (ie books by Mercedes Lackey, Tamora Pierce, and similar authors) since it represents the majority of fantasy that has been published in the last 12-15 years. However, when Blue Rose was released, I discovered that most male gamers on sites like RPG.net had absolutely no knowledge of this genre, and that Blue Rose represented their first introduction to the various genre conventions (which produced comments like this and worse (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=3827768#post3827768).

Similarly, as I just posted in jhkimrpg: Far more people (the vast majority of whom are, IME at least, women) are happily roleplaying in on-line FF (typically media-derived) roleplaying message boards, chat rooms, and yahoo groups (such as the many hundreds of such games for Buffy, Star Wars, and almost any other popular TV show or movie you can name) than have every played tabletop RPGs, the Forge, or any of the issues we are talking about. If you include those people as role-playing gamers then I think that there are more women than men who roleplay, they just exist in a community that is largely (but not exclusively) separate from the tabletop RPG community.

So, while both traditional and indie tabletop gaming have their origins in the 1970s, when men made up the vast majority of gamers and both SF & fantasy were targeted largely at young men and boys, the world has changed and there are entire fantasy genres that many male gamers have surprisingly never heard of, and many women have found their own roleplaying forums that have little to do with tabletop roleplaying. I find this deeply sad (particularly since I find traditional tabletop roleplaying to be considerably more interesting to me than on-line message-board roleplaying).

In any case, thank you for a fascinating post and welcome to my friends list.

[brand-of-amber.livejournal.com]

No joke. The community response to Blue Rose included some of the most shockingly sexist (http://brand-of-amber.livejournal.com/62988.html) and homophobic comments I've ever seen. It made me pained to be a member of communities with many folks out there, but happy that there were folks like you who were willing to push things.

Oh, zdashamber, Mo's blog is at: http://www.spaceanddeath.com/sin_aesthetics/ -- if'n you ever want to follow up on that.

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

This is utterly brilliant and I feel proud to know you!

*swoon*

[judd-sonofbert.livejournal.com]

Rock on, setting up steps to make gaming (and anything, really) more inclusive.

I have a couple of issues with examples, however:

So, for the specific examples of changes that could be made: In the "shut up!" thread when Mo came in with the righteous smackdown I was like, Damn, now here's a woman after my own heart! I want to talk to her! But Story Games has no way for me to find her. There are no sigs where she can put her blog info.

If you click on someone's name you can see their info and anyone can put whatever information they want. The format is entirely customizable. It is pretty nifty, not worse than a sig, just different.

When you're talking about rpging, women are your colleagues in the discussion. Basically, don't say things on the internet that you wouldn't say at work. Call people on it when they do. Would you say "y'all got a purty mouth" at work? Would you say, "I detail cars... With my penis!"? God, I hope not. Ew. ;)

But you weren't in their office. You were in Vincent's living room. Why is penis a dirty word?

Ron saying that he is a heterosexual male, again, penis is a dirty word. We are supposed to be a gentleman, not a eunuch. I think there is a difference.

Other than those two nitpicks, rock and roll and thanks for contributing to the blog-o-sphere dialogue on this matter.

[jeregenest.livejournal.com]

I think zdashamber already addressed this point. Stating that you "Roleplay with your penis" is as problematic as saying you engage in any activity with your penis. It is off putting, and frankly rather indicative of a problematic mindset. To continue with the physics department analogy, if a male chair of a physics department said he did physics wih his penis he'd be forced to resign, with good reason. Its not the attitude folks want for an inclusive environment. The whole Larry Summers incident is a good example.

Vicnent saying he roleplays with his penis or Ron saying he sexualizes women at the gaming table s the same darn thing.

[lumpley.livejournal.com]

Hey Madeline. I'm Vincent.

Fantastic post! And like everyone else has said, welcome to my friend list.

I think you've misread me (and not just you). The truth is that I think that associating any particular roleplaying style with maleness is stupid. It's so stupid, in fact, that you might as well say "I roleplay with my penis." Obviously absurd, absurd on the face of it.

I almost hate to say so - I'm quibbling about a minor remark in an excellent post, I feel ungracious. But it's about me, so there it is.

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Hi, Vincent! Pleased to have you here; I've had a lot of fun with Dogs.

Don't worry, I actually do see the humor of the penis thing... It's why I aimed for a lighthearted take with the linking. And I see how you're saying that humor is a necessary part of moving past gender essentialism. I just disagree that in this case the humor is as clearly ridiculous as it would have to be to be beneficial. Satire is really hard. And the sad thing is, a lot of people seem to be using terms like "yanger" as serious classifications of playstyles.

[divalea.livejournal.com]

On cons and childcare:

About twelve years ago, I was asked by a well-meaning male colleague (and father of two) why I didn't bring my kids with me to cons.
"Because I have to work at cons," I said.
"But I bring mine," he replied.
"Yes," I said "And you also bring along your wife, who watches your kids."
"Oh. Yeah."

I have been to one con where someone gladly watched my critter while I did panels, and it was awesome. (BayCon 1994.) I got back a toddler who could say "Huzzah!" and I was thoroughly charmed.
I have also been to cons where I was promised help and hospitality that never happened. (Anime America 1992 and 1993.) I returned in '93 after being shat upon mightily in 1992, because apologies were tendered and promises were made. The payback for my trust gave me a new rule about never going to a con again if they fucked up with me, because did they ever.

I hope things have gotten better with regards to how non-parents behave towards parents of babies and young children at cons. What I saw ten years ago, and have heard since, is not confidence-building.

Part and parcel of a fucked-up, yet normalized culture. I'm glad to see gals (and guys) standing up and saying"Enough of that shit, and here's how."

Go you!

[(Anonymous)]

Just came back from a con, and in light of the discussions here I was watching out for issues related to gender and gaming. First I'd like to say that participation in this con was a pretty even mix of male and female. That may not be the norm, but it's what we had at this con.

Second, there definitely were people there with children, often young children. There were no childcare arrangements, and I didn't see anybody working the con who had children. I did see the spouses and children of several people working the con. I think that this is because of the same reason that you don't see people bringing their children to work every day: it's not practical.

What I did see was that everyone was very quick to help out parents who were in need (and these were almost universally women). I was with the group running the computer lounge, and when a mother came in needing to change her infant, we quickly got her a table. She was also a small focus of attention, since the wife of one of our members is expecting a baby fairly soon.

As I mentioned over on Matt's blog, I did also see some behavior that was likely to keep women unwelcome in some groups. I was in a room with a group of guys, we were all happily talking about computer stuff. Three cute, drunk girls showed up and effectively killed the conversation. I don't think that they did it with the intent of being rude, but instead out of ignorance that their behavior was disruptive or offensive in any way. They were greeted cheerfully and made to feel welcome, but it had wholly killed what was going on before. If it had happened at a gaming session I had set up with friends, I would have been offended. As it was, I had just met these guys casually, so I moved on to greener pastures.

[(Anonymous)]

So, when are you getting started on making a place like this happen, Madeline? Sign me up when you get it done.

-Jordann

[arrefmak.livejournal.com]

Love this. Awesome.

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Thanks! :D

Childcare at ACNW

[simonepdx.livejournal.com]

We had childcare at ACNW once in the 9 years it's been going. In that instance, I sent a list of local, on-site, child-care providers to all the people who mentioned an interest. The folks who used the service chose the provider and then coordinated the timing, location, etc.

I gather it worked out fine, but the offer's been spurned before and since in light of costs.

A new group of families with young children is starting to attend; if it ever becomes worthwhile for them, they are welcome to use that option.

For the record, licensed bonded daycare on-site for more than one child is not cheap.

[cavlec.livejournal.com]

Bless you for this post; I am so very memorying it. Applicable to much, much more than gaming.

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Some anonymous tool couldn't find the right post to attach his comment to, so I've done him the honor of moving it here in its entirety:

A Rebuttal to your statements about women and gaming
(Anonymous)
2006-05-05 06:23 pm UTC (from 200.125.61.183)

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/481170384/item.html

The poor bastard has been dizzied by the number of points whizzing past him, and in his distress he lashes out with attempts to connect me to all the things he finds bad in rpg/internet/life, but interestingly, towards the end without realizing it he's pretty much coming from the same place I am.

[the-tall-man.livejournal.com]

Most of this, I'm pretty calm about, though some of it seems like a bit of a stretch. The most "stretched" bit, to me, is this:

"Keep an eye out to see that you're mentioning women game designers and theorists when you can."

Why? Either they will be mentioned naturally in the context of the discussion, or they won't. If they will be, great, whatever. If they won't, isn't going out of the way to do so just a little bit patronizing?

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you're calm! It would take someone coming from a really strange place to get inflamed by this, and you've always seemed pretty reasonable.

Now, as for whether women game designers and theorists will be called on as authorities with a frequency commensurate to their contributions, the IOP found that isn't the case for women physicists, and that no one realized it. I don't see a reason that would be different amongst the rpg world.

If your fear is looking patronizing, you'll have to balance that against your desire to help open up the rpg world to more equal input.

[jimboboz.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this post, zdashamber.

I see a lot of geekboys blabbing, "oh no, how can we get more women into gaming????!" and then all the boys start arguing with each-other. "More romantic rpgs!" "Less chainmail bikini chicks!" "Hey no my girlfriend loves chainmail bikini chicks!" "Liar!" and so it goes.

It never seems to occur to them to ASK WOMEN.

And here's your post, saving us the trouble of asking you;)

Not that I want more women specifically in gaming. I just want more _people_ in gaming, and the quickest way to increase it would be to include half the population... Why do I want more people in gaming? So I have more to choose from when I GM :D

[coridan.livejournal.com]

Hello!

I linked to this entry from that nutter RPGPundit over at the therpgsite.com (rpg.net, where I usually hang out, is down right now.) I agree with the salient points in your entry, but editorial-wise, it's somewhat confusing to read, since there are threads of three topics - con child care, feminist issues in gaming and at gaming websites, and a particular British study of physics departments.

I think that the kernels in the article are great. I'd love to discuss the possibility of possibly editing the above into 3 peices - how to make women more welcome in gaming culture(which would include the peices on blogs and message boards and Issues of child care in convention fandom. If you like, please contact me at coridan AT verizon DOT net.

Also, if you don't mind, I'll add you. Please add me back!

I'm Kaiu Keiichi over at rpg.net.

CB

[zdashamber.livejournal.com]

Heya! I used to hang on RPG.net, but given a choice between pointing out sexist (and other) BS and getting banned by overagressive mods, or abandoning it while keeping the option open of working on the Gaming Index and posting in the Tetsujin memorial thread, I left at the start of this year. I posted as Madeline.

You're right that this article has more of a "dumped out of a purse" kind of organization and could benefit from editing. I was thinking of reworking it for Cerise (http://cerise.theirisnetwork.org/archives/13), but didn't have time to do so for the first issue, and the subsequent two have had themes that didn't quite work. I do think that childcare at gaming cons is a big part of making women more welcome in gaming culture, since cons are a significant part of gaming culture, and women are unduly burdened with childcare.

Feel free to add me if you like! I'm glad you found something worthwhile in this post. :)